Two Vegan Authors Rewrite the Narrative to Help Defend Veganism from a War of Misinformation

[Speaker 1]

Welcome to the Unchained TV podcast with me, your host, Jane Velez Mitchell. Guess what, folks, we got some bad news for you. Veganism is under attack by advertiser-based mainstream media.

 

Take a look at some of these headlines, very slanted, and these are not just like small publications, some of the biggest publications in the world. And that’s why vegan books are a crucial tool to counteract this misinformation campaign. And now, breaking news, we’ve got two new extraordinary vegan books out, and we’re going to talk to the authors about these books, Vegan Transformation and Life Veganized.

 

So, let’s start with the Vegan Transformation. Angela Crawford, you are a psychotherapist, a therapist, and you have talked about how veganism, contrary to how everybody tries to make it seem like it’s some extraordinary sacrifice, it’s actually a gift and something that makes us happier and healthier and more in tune with our better nature. Can you elaborate what the big points you make in your book are regarding that?

 

Yeah, I’m happy to. I’m so thrilled to be here. I researched this book by interviewing vegans who have been vegan for varying lengths of time, and it was about the emotional, social, and spiritual changes in their life with being vegan.

 

There’s a lot of books that look at more of the health and the environmental and ethical aspects of our vegan lifestyle, but what happens when we align with our ethics in terms of our emotional well-being? And what I found through surveys and interviews with vegans about how they felt their life had changed emotionally and spiritually, there were so many positive benefits, even though there can be challenges because we are still a minority in the world as far as the numbers of people that are vegan compared to omnivores. So there are some social challenges people face, but there was also so many blessings that people felt as they align with this lifestyle.

 

Emotional fulfillment, greater sense of purpose and peace, spiritual alignment, true connection with other people who share their values, and also health empowerment. You know, often we’re taught we don’t have much control over our health other than taking pills, but I interviewed many people who found that by changing their lifestyle and becoming fully plant-based and vegan, that they transformed their health, things that they were told couldn’t heal. So there was an empowerment that came with that.

 

When we align with our values, it’s beneficial to us as well as to those that we’re helping through our life change. Of course. I mean, you think about people who, for example, do something, and none of us is perfect, obviously, but let’s say somebody who commits a terrible crime, you know, there’s those old songs about the criminal returning to the scene of the crime and how they’re often haunted by guilt and remorse and reliving what it is that they did.

 

Well, I mean, if you think about the violence involved with eating animals, on some level, everybody knows that they’re contributing to the killing of these animals, and that’s got to have a psychological impact, even if it’s completely unconscious, Angela. Yes, definitely. You’re speaking to research that shows how we treat animals and how we treat other beings relates to how we treat humans and our own mental health and well-being.

 

And the people I interviewed said that when they aligned with their values by eating a fully plant-based vegan diet and making other choices also that were compassionate and cruelty free, they felt a sense of freedom they hadn’t anticipated. You know, sometimes we do fear that it will be restrictive or depriving, but the people I interviewed, for the most part, found that they felt so much freer and better and more authentic. And, you know, a really great quote is that even if sometimes we’re challenged as we learn about what happens to animals, it brings up tough emotions.

 

There’s also freedom and peace that we can make different choices. I love it. And now we’re going to get into our second author’s book, which is Life Veganized.

 

I love the title. I think it kind of reflects you as a very modern person who is on the cutting edge of social media. Stephanie, you have decided at some point you’re going to devote your life and your career to promoting the plant-based lifestyle.

 

How did you come up with this book, Life Veganized, and what is the key point, the elevator pitch? Yes. So this is something that I’ve wanted to do for a long time, but I did just turn 32 last month and I went vegan at 16.

 

So I’ve now been vegan for half of my life. So I thought this was a great time to write this book. I am asked very often, you know, vegans are usually asked like how they went vegan and when.

 

And going vegan at 16, it’s kind of, it is a unique story. So I wanted, I wanted to put it down, put it out there. And I think that as far as veganism goes, my view of veganism, it’s more of like a simplistic view where life veganized, that was, that was my old handle of all my social media channels before.

 

And the way that I came up with that name was because I wanted to show people that no matter what kind of life you have, you can live it in a vegan way. So I was living in the Midwest when I went vegan. I was 16.

 

My family was on welfare. We were on food stamps and I went vegan in the middle of all of that. And it actually wasn’t difficult at all.

 

I didn’t know how to cook either. But I, that, that’s all it really is. It’s just a very simplistic view that you can be vegan no matter what your circumstances are.

 

And then in this book that I wrote, I talk about how I went vegan, but then how my life has been the past 16 years as a vegan throughout my twenties. I’ve moved across the country a few times. I’ve worked different nine to fives.

 

I’ve worked in food service. I have been homeless and lived in my car in my early twenties, a couple of different times, and I was vegan through all of it. And it’s never been a challenge.

 

Fascinating. And you know, what I find particularly fascinating is that you didn’t find it a challenge and you also didn’t have the disconnect. I’ll give you an example.

 

I had lunch with a lovely lady, really super, super kind and wonderful. And she was telling me about how much she loved animals. And I said, all animals.

 

And she said, all animals. And she was eating ham. And I just went like this.

 

What about that? Now, of course I was accused of being rude, silently accused of being rude with a lot of eyebrows. But the point was that the disconnect was so profound, a good person, a kind person, but unable to make that connection.

 

Why do you think, Stephanie? And this is something that perplexes me. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

 

It has nothing to do with how successful you are. Some people make the connection and some don’t, no matter what you say. What was it about you, Stephanie, that allowed you to make the connection?

 

I love that you asked this, because this is what I talk about near the beginning of it, is that ever since I was like maybe like three years old, I always knew that one day I would not eat animals. And I spent, I’m from Columbus, Ohio, but I spent several years as a child in a small farm town growing up there. And our neighbors, people that we knew that I went to school with, they’re all families of like hunters and farmers.

 

And I think that growing up in that environment, you would think it raises hundreds and farmers. But I think that that was definitely something that actually drove me to the life that I have now. Because ever since I was very, very little, I thought, I’m going to be vegetarian one day.

 

I don’t want to eat animals. I love animals. I really care about them.

 

And we had deer roaming in our backyard. We had all types of wildlife. And because I’ve eaten deer when I was a kid, but we also had them in our backyard.

 

And I think that that, like it kind of had a reverse effect where like, you know, I was almost in 4-H as a kid, but I was like too shy to like do anything, you know. So I didn’t do that. But like I almost did 4-H.

 

And like, I think that that was actually what made me make the connection. Like I always felt like I was in close contact with wildlife and animals and even farms and farm animals. And then after I went vegetarian at 15, and then I accidentally read a book about veganism at 16, and then went vegan right away.

 

Well, that raises the whole issue of how important it is to have vegan books. I would say documentaries and books are two of the leading ways that people go vegan. Yes, it’s social media.

 

And social media is very important. And we at Unchained TV embrace social media. And I know Stephanie, you’re a whiz at it.

 

But sometimes 30 seconds won’t do it. Whereas an entire documentary, like an Earthlings, like a Dominion, like a Forks Over Knives, all these films that we have on Unchained TV, the streaming network you see behind me, we’re the world’s only plant-based animal rights streaming television network. Those long form have a tendency to convince people more thoroughly.

 

They can’t dismiss it. The same thing with books. So Angela, what is the impact you hope your book has?

 

Because you did a lot of research, you spent a lot of time, you are a doctor, you are a psychologist. This was a huge investment. Why did you feel your book, The Vegan Transformation, was worth all of that effort?

 

Well, like many people I had when I first was moving in the direction of veganism thought it would be too hard. I thought it would be depriving. And then as I learned what I learned about factory farming and animal agriculture, and I just knew I couldn’t keep eating meat anymore.

 

Something broke through that disconnect that you were describing. I think it was a mixture of things like you mentioned, books and documentaries. And so as I embraced a lifestyle, I found my life opened up.

 

Similar to Stephanie, I had not been a cook. I hadn’t really enjoyed food prep. And now I was making all these delicious plant-based meals that were really wonderful.

 

And I found my voice. I am definitely an introvert. I don’t have all that social media that Stephanie does, although I’m growing into that.

 

But becoming vegan, it helped me find a greater sense of purpose and a determination to share this. And I wanted to bring my gifts, which is psychotherapy and psychology, to this movement. And because that piece about how we change internally was missing from a lot of what I was reading, I wanted to learn more about it through talking to vegans and seeing their experience and sharing that part of it that we change inside in so many ways that are truly transformative and not depriving but actually make our lives fuller.

 

That is the key. And this book, The Vegan Transformation, you can get it on Amazon. You can also get it at AngelaCrawfordPhD.com.

 

I urge you to click on that. It’s a great book to give to people. And there’s seven transformational aspects that you have outlined.

 

Living aligned with core values, extending compassion to all sentient beings, sense of purpose in creating a kinder, healthier world, connection with others who share similar values, greater emotional fulfillment and well-being, taking charge of health through plant-based nutrition, deepening spirituality, interconnectedness with all life. I love how you break that down. Now, to me, what’s so important is there are so many people right now who are suffering from depression.

 

And I remember somebody called me once and they said, I’m really suffering from depression. I didn’t know her that well. And I probably didn’t express it the right way, but I said, why don’t you try?

 

Well, I definitely didn’t say it the right way. But what I did indicate was maybe she should try a plant-based diet. And this was my thought.

 

Your gut biome determines your serotonin levels. Your serotonin levels determine your mood. So this old saw about eating an apple a day, by the way, we recently profiled the green smoothie challenge, which the plant-based treaty has undertaken, and I’ve embraced it.

 

And I’m having a kale smoothie every day, which is a super food. And it’s unbelievable. But these old saws about an apple a day keeps the doctor away.

 

It also keeps maybe the depression away. And it’s not just sort of an urban myth or a myth. There’s actual science behind it, Angela.

 

Yeah, there is. There’s a whole section in the book exactly on what you’re saying, a chapter called Authentic Fulfillment. And what I found through researching the literature is that those of us that eat more fruits and vegetables and other whole plant foods, there is a link between that and emotional well-being.

 

And I will acknowledge that mental health is complex, that in my work in the past as a psychotherapist, it wasn’t that solely changing nutrition would always fix everything, but it’s a really important foundation. If we’re not getting exactly what you described, the foods that support our microbiome and our nervous system and our whole well-being, it’s going to make it harder for our mental health and for the other lifestyle changes that we might want to make to have as much impact. So 100% what you’re saying, eating those kinds of foods that support our body and our gut and our brain, all of those help a lot.

 

So somebody wanted to know, Stephanie, what was the book that you read at age 16 that had such an impact on your decision to go vegan? It was called Skinny Bitch. In the early 2000s, it was making the rounds around Hollywood and all of the celebrities and things like that were reading it.

 

It was a huge thing. And it was advertised as a diet nutrition book. And I was very into nutrition, diet, fitness, as a preteen teenager.

 

So I read Skinny Bitch, and it starts talking about how you can be healthy and you don’t smoke cigarettes, don’t drink alcohol in order to be skinny and healthy. And I’m 16, so I’m like, I don’t do that anyway. That’s great.

 

And then there was a chapter in the book at the very beginning, it talks about how you shouldn’t eat meat to be healthy and skinny and in shape. And I thought, wow, the people who wrote this, the women who wrote this are vegetarian. And then they start talking about the dairy and egg industry.

 

So long story short, it goes into that. And I couldn’t look at dairy and eggs the same after reading that book. It’s so fascinating that you talk about this, because that was, you know, there was the first way.

 

Well, there’s been many waves of veganism. I mean, it’s as old as time. And there’s a great film, Christ’s Piracy, that discusses that in depth.

 

But what I found fascinating is that the actual word vegan is not that old. It actually stemmed from the vegetarian society having a rift, and there were non-dairy vegetarians who wanted to have their own newsletter, and they were denied. So they created their own newsletter, and they took the first two letters of vegetarian and the last two letters of vegetarian, put them together, and that became vegan.

 

And it wasn’t really until just mid-20th century that it started even going into the dictionaries. And like, growing up, I didn’t have the word vegan. We were primarily pescetarian in my household, but the word didn’t even really enter the lexicon until like, well, very, very recently.

 

So it’s hard to see change in real time. We might say, why is it taking so long? But in reality, it’s accelerating very quickly.

 

However, there has been a backlash. When Beyond Meat became the most successful initial public offering in years in 2019, the meat industry said, oh my gosh, we are going to have to counteract. And they sure did.

 

And it’s kind of reached a crescendo. I just picked out three recent headlines that are very terrifying to me. Meat is back on plates and in politics after years in which plant-based was the mantra.

 

Meat once again dominates the national conversation about dinner. That’s the New York Times. Yes, I urge everyone, subscribe to the New York Times because subscribers can comment.

 

I commented basically calling out the article. It was published and I got something like 48 recommends. So it’s very important to subscribe to the New York Times, the most important newspaper in the world, and have the ability to comment.

 

Here’s another one from the New York Post. New research is bad news for vegans, even if you eat plant-based protein. Again, what about all the research that shows that the blue zones, people living the longest lifespans, the healthiest lives are living a plant-based diet?

 

And then here’s another one from BBC Science of all places. Even protein-rich vegan diets may fall short on key nutrient studies suggest. Now, I think all of these are what I would call hit pieces.

 

Please, I invite any author of those articles on at any time. I would love to dialogue with you. Prove me wrong because in my opinion, they were unbalanced articles.

 

What can we do about it, Angela? And do you address this in your book at all? Yeah, this came up in the book.

 

I had spoken with you actually early in my research process and you pointed out to me some articles that were claiming, for example, that vegans were depressed. And so I looked more closely at those. And what I found when I got to the root of what those articles were based on, most referenced a meta-analysis study that was actually funded by the beef industry.

 

And T. Colin Campbell, who wrote the China study, speaks to this, that you really have to look at who is funding the research. And as you say, are they giving a balanced perspective on what research is out there?

 

The plant-based doctors that I highlight in my chapter on health empowerment, they have shown with really awesome strict science studies that a plant-based diet has so many benefits for our health. And Dean Ornish showing that we can open up our blood vessels through a plant-based diet and reverse heart disease. I’d really like to see how these studies can really counter that strong research.

 

Yeah, and you know, I do always give a chance for people who comment to make their comments. So we have a comment here that I would like to put up. And this is John Harriman Corcoran.

 

Great respect and fondness, Jane, of course. However, I believe if God had wanted everyone to be vegans, he wouldn’t have invented ham and cheese sandwiches. Now, let me just respond to that.

 

I’ll give you all the chance to respond to it. John, I just want to show you some images of pigs heading into slaughter. Here in Los Angeles, there was a Farmer John slaughterhouse owned by Smithfield, which is owned by the Chinese and is the largest meat pig killer in the world.

 

And so we used to bear witness at these vigils, basically trying to offer comfort to pigs who were going into the slaughterhouse. And there’s one looking up. They’re killed generally at about six months of age, and they are terrified.

 

And we would try to offer them water and a little comfort and say things like, we love you. Pigs, by the way, it shouldn’t matter, but they’re smarter than dogs. Some consider them the fifth largest, the fifth most intelligent species on the planet.

 

And I got to tell you, I had people who said they would go to these vigils and didn’t show up. It’s difficult. Here’s pigs kept in gestation crates the size of their bodies, never able to turn around.

 

They go psychotic. You know, if you did any of this to a dog for a week, you’d be charged with animal cruelty. And here’s an image of pigs in a Canadian facility covered in dirt.

 

It’s really almost unimaginable what these animals go through. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. It is truly, truly, well, I’d say it makes me embarrassed to be a member of the human species.

 

There it is, a Canadian pig facility that had a very high rating by the Canadian government, and they are covered in their own feces. Now, I just ask you, John, if you’re still watching, do you still think it’s funny? Do you still think it’s a big joke?

 

Look into the eyes of that being. Just look into the eyes of that being and maybe look in the mirror and just think about it. That’s what I would have to say.

 

What would anybody else like to say about this? Stephanie? Um, well, I mean, my first thought, I mean, I guess I’m on Unchained, so I’m probably allowed to say this, but like, if you said something similar, but compared it to, what is the comment?

 

If God, whatever, okay. If you compared this to physical or sexual abuse against a human, well, they wouldn’t make whatever so desirable, so appealing. That would have a very different response from people.

 

Do you get what I’m saying? I’m trying not to, like, be too whatever. Right, right.

 

If we’re comparing this to, like, the abuse of humans, it’d be horrific to say something like that, but because it’s an animal, because there is so much disconnect, that just goes to show how much disconnect there really is in general. And how about you, Angela? What would you say to the gentleman?

 

Well, I resonate with what both you and Stephanie said, you know, 100%, and I guess I reflect on what I’ve learned from Dr. Melanie Joy, who wrote the book Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, Wear Cows, how I was once deeply conditioned to believe, as so many of us are, as we all are, really, that eating animals is, quote, unquote, normal, natural, and necessary. And yet, you know, when something breaks through, when we see, you know, whether you could argue it ever was normal, natural, or necessary, it is not natural now, what you’re showing us. And those of us that are vegan discover it isn’t necessary.

 

And as far as the normal part, you know, you can call something normal because it’s happening a lot, but that doesn’t make it okay. And that’s something I’ve come to realize, and many of us come to realize, there have been past atrocities all through history that were normalized at the time, but we now know we’re not okay. And I think that’s so true when you look more closely at current animal agriculture.

 

Yeah, and it gets back to the woman who was saying she loved all animals while eating a slice of ham. And, you know, a lot of Americans underestimate the amount of meat they eat, and the average American eats 66.18 pounds of pork alone per year. And tragically, not to be Debbie Downer, but the consumption of animals is on the rise, it is not going down.

 

So this is why I bring this up. Now, let’s also talk about the climate crisis, because you don’t need me to tell you that the world’s in the midst of a climate crisis. And we’re seeing more and more devastating wildfires, floods, tornadoes, extreme weather.

 

There’s a lot of talk about fossil fuels, but there’s not as much talk about the impact of animal agriculture. Just the other day, we had a well-known scientist on who has just submitted a paper making the case that animal agriculture is the leading cause of climate change. He is willing to debate anybody anytime.

 

And I’m not a scientist, but it’s a very big subject. So it depends on how you analyze it and how you frame it. So with all that being said, I would like to point out an article that was in the New York Times, not so long ago, that made the point that researchers who examined the diets of 55,500 people found that vegans are responsible for 75% less in greenhouse gases than meat eaters.

 

So if you really think about that, that means that if we all reduced our meat consumption and became plant-based, we would all collectively reduce human greenhouse gas emissions by 75%. And right there, that is a solution to the climate crisis. Now, the reason I mentioned that, getting back to the mainstream media slanted coverage of this entire issue, that was in the New York Times.

 

It was kind of buried, but it was there. And nobody picked it up. It wasn’t picked up by CNN, by MSNBC, by Fox News.

 

I looked. I said, well, surely they have to say something about that’s the solution to the climate crisis. No.

 

And that was an Oxford University study. That was not a study by just some random group of people. Stephanie, how do we counteract this onslaught of basically misinformation and a blackout on this solution?

 

I think it’s more of a long game. When you go to any type of media, news outlets, whether it’s vegan, climate-related or not, you can find coverage supporting any argument, both sides, on any topic. Now, you mentioned to me the other day that, not that New York Times article, but the one slandering veganism.

 

And I found it and read it and took some notes. But it’s interesting that you pointed out that article that’s pretty pro-vegan. And then the other day, they come out with this one that’s completely against veganism.

 

But I think that as far as what we can do, do our own research, understand that no matter what you believe or what you find to be true, there will be an article or some type of news out there that is completely trying to discredit everything. You can find anything on the internet to support any argument. But it’s important to think for ourselves, question things, and then just continue to focus on ourselves and our corner of the world.

 

We can control ourselves and we can control our own actions. So try not to get discouraged by those types of articles that are trying to be pro-meat, that kind of thing. And just know that peace starts on your plate.

 

And getting back to the gentleman who said God wouldn’t have created ham and cheese sandwiches, God wouldn’t have created vegan ham and vegan cheese sandwiches. Karen LaCava, who is a well-known plant-based chef and caterer, has commented, that’s why we can now have vegan ham and cheese sandwiches that are even tastier and humane. So there you go.

 

Somebody upstairs is coming up with a lot of good vegan products. And the other thing I want to just point out while we’re talking is that these vigils, even though Farmer John, the Smithfield-owned slaughterhouse, closed down because of a lot of those protests, there were huge protests, celebrities were coming. Joaquin Phoenix was there after winning one of the major acting awards and it was getting huge publicity.

 

So I think they decided it’s actually not working for us. Let’s close this down and put this slaughterhouse somewhere where nobody can find us in the middle of nowhere. But it was a huge success, but the vigils are still happening around the world by the Save Movement.

 

And you have someone here pointing out chicken vigil happening the first Friday of the month in Chinatown by Animal Alliance Network in Los Angeles. So go to the Save Movement if you want to look at what’s really happening and be part of the solution. I will say one other thing.

 

There was a couple and the wife wanted to go to the vigil and she then called me up right before we were supposed to head off and said, my husband can’t go. He thinks he’ll be sick. Nevertheless, they did not then say, it’s so awful, I’m going to stop eating animals.

 

That’s another part of the disconnect. Even when there’s an acknowledgement of what’s really going on is morally reprehensible, the habit continues. I liken it to alcoholism.

 

I’m 30 years sober and I have to tell you it’s a miracle because before I got sober 30 years ago, I couldn’t go a day without a drink. I’d say, I’m not going to have a drink tonight. And then the nighttime would roll around and I would be drinking again.

 

And I hit bottom at a party in West Hollywood. And I had a friend who was helping me, willing to help. I had an action point to get help and I never had a drink again.

 

I think the key is that I had an action point. So what is the action point that we can give people so that when they have that moment of, oh my God, this is horrible. I shouldn’t be participating.

 

What they say about alcoholism and I think it applies to meat eating is it’s a disease of amnesia. You forget, we have a tendency to romanticize, let’s say the Chardonnay or the Martini and not remember, oh, the blackout or the stumbling home or the embarrassing things that were said. It’s a disease of amnesia.

 

How do we counteract that Angela? And you’re a therapist. So you’re the person to talk to.

 

Yeah. Well, I agree with you that for most of us, there’s some point that awakens us to wanting to make a change. And so if we’re trying to encourage others, one thing I think is helpful is to meet people where they are and share in ways that resonate with them.

 

If it’s someone having a health issue, it’s okay to come from the health angle to help them see that eating plant-based could help them heal some horrible disease they have and have a better life. If they are open to compassion for animals, then certainly sharing your own journey and teaming up with them. If we’re coming from the angle of, I once thought those same things.

 

I once believed that I had to eat meat or that I wouldn’t be okay. And I once believed animals were treated humanely. And then this is what I learned.

 

Sharing your own story can sometimes make people be more open and feel more curious to understand your journey and to start to think, well, maybe I could do that too. And I think one other piece of it is when people do make a change and they start on the vegan path, they need support. The research suggests that the biggest reason that people start to be vegan, but then don’t sustain it.

 

One is that they might only be doing it strictly for health reasons and not have enough grounded other reasons like the compassion for animals and the environment. But another reason is the social situations. Because we are social creatures, if we’re in settings where we’re the only vegan and we don’t have any support, that can make it a lot harder.

 

And so if we’re helping people on the vegan journey, we need to also connect them with supports that help them through the challenges and help them to see that this is doable and to learn the skills that will make this easier and easier. I hope in time there’s a tipping point where there’s so much vegan food and vegan support that it becomes more and more an inviting path for more people. Well, we at Unchained TV, the world’s only vegan streaming network, provide that support with literally hundreds of cooking shows that are free to watch.

 

It looks like salmon, it tastes like salmon, but let me tell you, it’s plant-based y’all. Plant-based in the birds, plant-based in the birds. I bought a tofu press because I eat a lot of tofu.

 

This one makes it so easy. You just slide it in. And then you just turn it.

 

And see already how the marinade is making the tofu turn the same color as a salmon filet. But turn it over on its side. You want to make sure it doesn’t stick.

 

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who’s the greatest chef of all? It is I. Seitan is a high protein vegan alternative to chicken and it’s so delicious.

 

It’s nutritious and it’s made from vital wheat gluten. So we’re just going to massage the tail. I like to think about food in terms of micronutrients, right?

 

Do you need to make sure that you’re putting food in your body that is repairing not only the muscular system, but also your gut and your brain, right? And just every aspect of you. So we do everything we can at Unchained TV to try to give people that support.

 

And a lot of people have said they’ve gone vegan watching Unchained TV videos. And we provide the recipes online as well, written, so that people can follow the recipes and reenact. We talk about the nutritional content.

 

There you just heard Dotsie Bausch, who is a vegan Olympian, talking about how she eats kale all the time. You know, these videos have a profound impact on me too. I was an ethical vegan who went vegan for the animals and I didn’t really think twice about, oh, the nutrition.

 

And thanks to uploading all these videos, I’ve become much more interested in having nutritionally complete meals and eating a lot of super healthy things. Not to say that I’ll pass up that vegan croissant when it comes my way. But the point is that I think I’m trying to do everything I can.

 

Stephanie is trying to do everything she can. You are trying, Angela, to do everything you can, but we’re up against a behemoth. It’s a David and Goliath battle.

 

As Dr. Silas Rao, who was a brilliant systems analyst and a vegan advocate, said to me, Jen, we’re all being factory farmed. They need people to get sick so they can sell them the drugs. It’s a giant PR machine that’s conditioning people to not act in their best interests.

 

Just like people used to be encouraged to smoke. When I was a teenager, I smoked because I wanted to be cool. Then all of a sudden, society decided smoking isn’t cool.

 

And guess what? I stopped smoking so I can be manipulated. How do we do the same thing that happened to smoking for meat eating?

 

And how do we counteract this Goliath? Stephanie, not a difficult question, I might add, right? How do we save the world of veganism?

 

I think that, of course, the facts are important. I think, you know, I myself, you know, my journey, I feel like my purpose, what I’m trying to do in the long run is just continue promoting veganism, continue supporting the vegan movement, supporting vegan businesses, amplifying the voices of vegans in the community. And that, I mean, narrative.

 

But I think that that’s, that’s all we can do. When, you know, that article, that New York Times article, that’s like, you know, demonizing veganism. I was talking about, I was comparing veganism to like a trend.

 

And veganism would be a trend, if it wasn’t so sustainable, environmentally, and as far as health benefits. And that’s something that people that we are becoming more aware of as a society is how healthy veganism is. Things can look bleak and dark, as far as meat consumption rising.

 

However, I mean, you’re hearing of all types of people living all types of vegan lifestyles. Pregnant women are still vegan throughout their pregnancies, we’re raising vegan babies from birth. That’s something that you wouldn’t have heard of a long time ago.

 

So I do think that veganism is growing, and the education is getting better around vegan issues. And that’s all we can do. And I do think that all in all, we’re doing a pretty good job trying to fight against the system and a society that tries to push meat so much.

 

Again, you’re listening to Stephanie Stevens, the author of Life Veganized. I want to tell everybody where you can get these books. So I want to show the covers and I do have a hard copy of the other book.

 

We’re going to get into that in one second. But these are really fabulous books to give people as gifts. So I’m going to put up, you can get The Vegan Transformation on Amazon, but you can also get it at AngelaCrawfordPhD.com.

 

So think about it, The Vegan Transformation. It’s a great book to give to people if you’re already vegan. And if you’re not vegan, if you’re veganish or vegan curious, or just want to improve your health or for whatever reason, want to be less depressed, you can give it to yourself.

 

And as far as Stephanie Stevens, this is an ebook. So it’s not in print, but it’s an ebook. And you can go to StephanieVStevens.com and there’s a 20% promo code. If you put in Unchained TV, one word, you get 20% off that book. So these are, I think, really important tools that we can use to make change. And one of the things that I wanted to bring up, when I have people come over, I get a lot of books sent to me.

 

And then once I look through them and read them, I don’t want them just sitting on my mantle, not changing lives. I want to give them away to people so that other people can wake up. Here’s something I’ve found, and it may be totally just coincidence, but I have books on my mantle.

 

And if somebody comes and let’s say a plumber, an electrician, working on the internet, whatever. And if they do a good job and they’re nice, I go, look, I want to give you a little gift for you and your partner or whoever. And I find that the most unlikely people are the most passionate about being happy about getting this information.

 

I had a plumber here who was like, oh my God, I can’t wait to read this book. And yeah, my wife wants to do more vegan cooking and really thank you. I was like, oh, wow, that’s great.

 

Then there’s other people who are like, not that I hang out with Rhodes scholars, but we know these elitists, people who are highly intelligent, highly successful, call themselves environmentalists, basically do a lot of extraordinary work and yet they can’t get it. Even though they’re so smart, they can understand things that go over my head, like the nuances of the Mueller report, for example. How do you account for that discrepancy?

 

Because that is one thing that really torments me. People who are so smart, but can’t get the simple concept that unnecessarily killing these animals and whether you like it or not, you’re ordering the hit. Every time you buy a piece of meat or dairy, you are ordering the hit.

 

They can’t get that there’s something deeply wrong with that. Angela. Yeah.

 

There’s deep, both social and I think psychological factors that play into that. The social is that we are indoctrinated our whole lives to eat meat and dairy. As you mentioned, the lobbying and the advertising and all the messaging we get supports this idea of eating meat.

 

I think it’s so prominent in our culture. It takes something special to break through that. You add in also our personal addictions to certain foods, our personal memories with foods.

 

We were raised with certain foods and we attach emotional meaning to them. I try to understand why it’s hard sometimes for people from those standpoints. Sometimes when something breaks through, just some piece of information clicks with us where we become curious to learn more and go beneath all that we’ve been conditioned and indoctrinated and just raised to believe and think.

 

We break through that to some new idea that once we understand it, it really makes total sense that of course animals suffer. I’m a compassionate person. I don’t want to cause harm and I have other choices, but it really takes a breakthrough of some sort.

 

I do believe that when there’s more vegans over time, it will take less to break through. Right now, I think that social factor is a big deterrent that can get in the way. It’s really fascinating.

 

I do want to ask a follow-up question. Is there a certain personality type? In other words, when people want to sell products, and Malcolm Gladwell has written about this, how trends accelerate and grow.

 

They do study groups. They do focus groups. They try to find out what makes people tick, what’s going to make different people choose to buy this product, for example.

 

I don’t know that we’ve done those kinds of focus groups as a movement, but do you have any inkling? Is there a certain type of individual, let’s say, people who are curious to learn? I would think people who are curious to learn would be more likely to want to transition to plant-based than people who are, let’s say, know-it-alls.

 

I know everything. Any thoughts on that, Angela? Yeah, I agree with you.

 

I don’t know of any studies that specifically differentiate personalities, but I would agree with you. I think some traits that probably would be common in people that are open to the message sooner rather than later would be people that are, as you say, curious to learn. I do think people that are higher in empathy might also be more prone to get the message about animals more quickly than others.

 

Also, just people that are willing to step out and be different. If we’re really, really wired, and some of us have a harder time being different, I think for that person where I don’t want to be different than my family or my friends and how I eat, it’s more of a breakthrough in that case that we have to make of, okay, it’s okay to be different because I’m doing what’s right for me. I think people that are more independent in that way, it might be an easier step for them in the beginning.

 

Well, I mean, Stephanie, any social justice movement, if you think of the suffragettes who were trying to get women the right to vote, which we only got universal suffrage in 1920, so it’s not that long ago, and some people are trying to take us back. But if you think about that, the women who were standing up were daring to be different. They were not just wanting the social status of the moment, which frowned on women working and frowned on women having opinions and frowned on women who wanted to live outside the home and have a career.

 

They dared to be different. I mean, maybe there’s a campaign in there because now those women are heroes, but at the time, they were considered a big pain in the you know what. Yes.

 

I love that this topic came up. This is actually, I speak on this in the last chapter of my ebook. It’s just like 32 pages, the whole thing.

 

So it’s like chapter four, unexpected lessons veganism has taught me. So we all know that the health benefits, the ethical benefits, and the, oh my god, health, ethical, environmental, things like that, like the obvious benefits of veganism. However, the unexpected lessons, one of the very first points I make is that veganism taught me how to say no, and I write a couple paragraphs on that.

 

Another one, veganism taught me how to be different, how to be independent. I quit eating meat when I was 15 and went vegan at 16. So when I started working in nightclubs at 18, 19, 20, I was saying no to drugs and alcohol.

 

Peer pressure has nothing on me because I’ve been saying no to meat and dairy-based dinners with my family since I was 15. So I think Angela had a really, really good point that people that are more likely to go vegan, like you have to be okay with being different. And then on the other hand, I mean, I feel like there are a lot of people who, you know, if you’re an introvert or you’re shy or you’re worried about what other people will think, it can make it more difficult for you to be able to go vegan.

 

Or if you do, you’re just more shy and reserved about it and you keep it more private, which I think is okay too. You know, if you’re an introvert, a quiet person, a private person, you can still be vegan. You don’t need to be loud in order to be a good vegan.

 

But I think that that’s really important is just if you can be okay with being different, that’s really powerful. I love that you said that. And when I was reading your book and I didn’t read the entire thing, but I was going through it and that really struck me and I learned something that I didn’t know, which is that veganism can teach you how to say no.

 

And I’m a big people pleaser. It’s very hard for me to say no, except sometimes I’m like, if I don’t say no, I’m going to be collapsed on the floor in the fetal position because I’m one person and I can’t do everything. You know, with Unchained TV, people think that we are the vegan CNN Netflix, but we don’t have hundreds of people.

 

And so I’ve had to learn to say no. And it always hurts me when I do, because I want to say yes to everything. But I didn’t realize what you just said, that going vegan gives you the strength to learn to say no in other areas of your life.

 

Boom. That is a very wonderful observation. Jeez.

 

You know, this is a pretty fascinating conversation, Angela. I think it could be the most important issue of our time since let’s face it, getting the culture to go plant-based is possibly what’s going to be needed if we are to save our planet from a climate apocalypse. Yeah.

 

Yeah. What you’re saying is so true. And so I, you know, I resonate with what Stephanie shared because I also found the strength to overcome those people pleasing tendencies that were within me that you also shared.

 

And so I do feel veganism can be a path to our inner growth that can be helpful for us as much as it is for the world. And I think that’s part of what I wanted to convey through my book is that it’s so interconnected when we choose our own well-being through plant-based nutrition, through a vegan lifestyle, through aligning with our values. It also ripples into helping all these other things we care about.

 

And then it comes back to us because when I’m caring about all sentient beings and I’m caring for the planet, it makes my life better too. So it’s discovering it’s worth breaking through whatever might be a little challenging to learn how to navigate all those, you know, to speak up, to say no, to lead in the ways you can, to learn the practical cooking skills or food prep skills. All of that is worth because what we gain and what we share beyond ourselves.

 

We are just about out of time. This has been a fascinating conversation. I don’t know about you, but I could talk about this for hours.

 

I urge all of you get these books. It’s a great holiday gift, a birthday gift for someone or read it for yourself. Absolutely brilliant books that we need to support.

 

And I’m so really honored that I was able to have a discussion with these two amazing authors, Vegan Transformation and Life Veganized. So I think we’ll do final thoughts. What is your final thought, Stephanie, as we wrap up this whole discussion?

 

Well, I think I, as far as my part, I’m just trying to do my part to promote the vegan movement, get us closer to a vegan world, which I do think we can achieve one day. I think that educating people is the key to moving towards that, to having a better future. I have a lot of faith in humanity.

 

I think that a lot of people would be vegan if they knew the truth about the ethical aspects, environmental, the health benefits, that kind of thing. So I’m just trying to do my part to spread the word and give people a good why. Excellent.

 

Angela, your final thought? Yeah, I am inspired by the vegans I met through my research and both of you and other vegans that I know, because in living our values and really discovering that we can make a difference through our food and other choices and through this lifestyle, it has such an impact on so many things that matter to all of us. And so I just would focus on that we can be role models for what matters.

 

And we can also focus on the positives that we gain through this, because yes, there are a lot of negative things we’re trying to overcome, but there’s also so many positives that people can look to as they move in this direction of being vegan. I want to thank you both for taking the time. I know you’re very busy women doing so much.

 

I also would urge everybody who watched and thank you for watching, share it out if you’re watching on social media, and you can also share it out if you’re watching Unchained TV on your phone, you can literally text this or any other episode to your friends. So first you got to download Unchained TV, we’re the world’s only vegan streaming television network, again, available on your phone available at unchainedtv.com. And it’s on your TV.

 

If you’ve got an Amazon Fire Stick, a Roku device, or an Apple TV device. It’s also on all Samsung and LG TVs as well. So it’s a vegan Netflix.

 

Okay, that’s the craziest thing I’ve ever heard. I love Unchained TV.

 

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